SABINE MARCELIS

JÖRN KENGELBACH: SABINE MARCELIS, AFTER ONLY A FEW YEARS YOU RANK AMONG EUROPE’S TREND-SETTING DESIGNERS AND HAVE ALREADY PRESENTED A STREAM OF MEMORABLE WORKS. COULD YOU TELL US WHAT MAKES A DESIGN A DESIGN ICON?

SABINE MARCELIS: In my opinion, two things make exceptionally good work potential design icons: When a design bears a very specific signature – and still manages to appear timeless. I think that with many iconic designs, function isn’t necessarily the main focus. Things that have a very well thought-out function don’t necessarily become icons. That alone is not enough. They have to endure, remain exciting. That’s why I always look for this timelessness in my work. I think it’s important to bring things into the world that aren’t just trendy – or something that people might want to get rid of after a few years.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU CREATE SEATING OBJECTS WEIGHING SEVERAL TONS MADE OF GRANITE, QUARTZITE, AND MARBLE, SHOWN AS PART OF THE LONDON DESIGN FESTIVAL IN ST. GILES SQUARE. YOU ALSO PRESENT YOUR WORK AT ART BASEL AND WORK FOR BRANDS SUCH AS CÉLINE, DIOR, AND BULGARI – BUT ALSO FOR IKEA. HOW DOES THIS FIT IN WITH YOUR MAXIM OF TIMELESSNESS?
In the project for Ikea in particular, I had this timelessness in mind, even though I usually tend to design limited editions or one-off pieces. When you design something for a wider market, my worst nightmare would be that customers want to get rid of it after a few years. In fact, it’s surprising how long good designs last, even from big brands. Even a commission like this leaves enough room to stand out and be more timeless than others.

AS AN EXPERT, HOW DO YOU DEFINE GOOD DESIGN?
Good design should be something that stays useful for a lifetime. When it comes to product design, a good product is one that seamlessly transitions from your first apartment to your own home. It always has to stay relevant, regardless of its surroundings.

YOUR ROLE INVOLVES ANTICIPATING THE FUTURE, DESIGNING WHAT WILL BE GROUNDBREAKING TOMORROW, AND IDEALLY BEYOND. ON THE OTHER HAND, IT OFTEN TAKES MANY YEARS, EVEN DECADES, TO RECOGNIZE WHAT WAS NOT JUST FASHIONABLE BUT TRULY ENDURING. HOW DO YOU PERSONALLY DEAL WITH TRENDS?
It’s best to ignore trends. They are manufactured by the media, giving magazines something to cover. They serve as a pretext for companies to release new colors and sell more. They are dangerous because they imply that there are things that aren’t in fashion and need to be disposed of. I reject that.

WHICH DESIGNS HAVE LEFT THE GREATEST IMPRESSION ON YOU PERSONALLY, OR INFLUENCED YOU THE MOST?
In the case of the first one, I don’t even know who designed it. But the object is so cleverly made! It’s a can opener, a Japanese design. It moves by itself as you pry open a can. A very simple and perfectly functional design. The second one is not that old, maybe ten years. It was created by a Swedish designer, Jenny Nordberg. It’s a mirror, basically a sheet of float glass that she sprayed with silver nitrate. These organic splashes change everything about the mirror. For me, it’s a great example of how to bring materials to life. Because each of these mirrors is unique. It’s one of those designs where I wish I’d made it myself. The third design is one that I also like to integrate into my own interior designs. I have one at home, too: the Osaka sofa by Pierre Paulin from 1970. It is so versatile as it consists of three different segments that can be set up completely straight or curved. I appreciate this kind of flexibility. What I like best about it is that attentive users can see that the sofa is based on this flexible system. At first glance, you just think: cool sofa. But if you look closely, there is a really clever design behind it. The multiple layers are impressive.

LAST YEAR, YOU PRESENTED A RETRO-FUTURISTIC SHOW CAR OF THE FIRST TWINGO FROM 1993 FOR RENAULT – AND CAUSED QUITE A STIR. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS CAR THAT PARTICULARLY APPEALED TO YOU?
Renault had asked me to develop something for the Twingo’s 30th anniversary. So it wasn’t about a future study, but about bringing the iconic features of the Twingo to life. I knew the car well but had never considered it special. These are often the most charming projects, when you get to ask yourself: what do I do if I don’t particularly like something right away?

ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE RESULT?
Yes, because I underestimated the appeal of the Twingo at first. It’s brilliant when you take a closer look. The metal of the bodywork is visible inside, the folding seats together with the rear bench create space similar to a camper.

HOW DID YOU APPROACH THIS CAR DESIGN?
I singled out the key features and took them to the extreme. For example, with a large one-piece rear-view mirror that is integrated into the sun visor. This turns several functions into a single object, and I really like that about the Twingo. Working on the project was challenging because I had never worked on a car before. It also opens your eyes to the work of car designers. It’s an extremely demanding discipline.

THE SHOW CAR ALSO HAD A TYPICAL SABINE MARCELIS ELEMENT – A TRANSPARENT, FLUORESCENT STEERING WHEEL. TRANSPARENCY SEEMS TO BE A UNIFYING ELEMENT IN YOUR WORK. WHERE DOES YOUR FASCINATION FOR TRANSPARENT SURFACES AND MATERIALS COME FROM?
I’ve always been drawn to the idea of integrating light and materials. What quickly follows is that elements like transparency, reflection, and color come into play. These components form the toolkit for manipulating light – and yes, in most of my projects, I rely on at least one of these three approaches.

HOW DID THIS AFFECT YOUR WORK FOR RENAULT?
My first idea was to develop a fully transparent car to celebrate the construction. To make all the details visible, for example where the metal was reinforced, and so on. But unfortunately, it wasn’t technically possible. So we came up with a double shell. Now the outer layer is transparent so the structure inside is visible. The outer shell consists of one piece of acrylic for both windows and bodywork. By blending the opacity from the bottom to the top, an interesting effect emerged: if you look at the car from a 45 degreeangle, it’s completely opaque. Once you move, it turns transparent. It’s exciting to create objects that can be rediscovered from different angles.

YOUR FONDNESS OF TRANSPARENCY INEVITABLY LEADS TO COMPARISONS WITH LIGHT ARTISTS LIKE OLAFUR ELIASSON OR HELEN PASHGIAN. DO YOU THINK THESE COMPARISONS REFLECT YOUR OWN WORK?
Absolutely. Especially the early works of the Californian Light and Space movement from the 1950s to the 1970s inspired me. I admire the pioneers of this mindset. This influence also shows in the materials I often use, such as cast resins. The sculptor DeWain Valentine, who passed away recently, was among the first to employ them. Also, Helen Pashgian has been a significant source of inspiration for me.

HOW MUCH RESEARCH DO YOU DEDICATE TO THE PAST?
In my work, I try not to do too much research into what other artists or designers are doing or have done. It’s more interesting to be inspired by unexpected sources or simply to go out and experience light and space. In nature, for example.

Salle Privée, House No. 8, 2017, Sabine Marcelis. Image by Delfino Sisto Legnani.

PHILIPPE STARCK ONCE MENTIONED IN AN INTERVIEW THAT HE AVOIDS CITIES BECAUSE THEY ARE FULL OF ARTIFICIAL THINGS. HE PREFERS TO BE FAR AWAY IN NATURE AND EVEN MORE SO BY THE SEA, BECAUSE IT RESISTS TRANSFORMATION BY HUMANS.
Exactly, nature is the best designer. When I’m sitting in an airplane, above the clouds and the sun is setting, I think to myself: What could be more beautiful than that? It doesn’t cross anyone’s mind at a moment like that to say, that’s ugly. I try to bring these moments back to life in my work. Whether it’s the way the sun glistens on the sea during the day or the moon on the ocean at night, or the way a raindrop pearls off somewhere, all these tiny details can inspire a new idea.

HOW DO YOU BRING DESIGNS TO LIFE IF YOU LIKE WORKING WITH LIGHT AS MUCH AS YOU DO? DO YOU CREATE ELABORATE RENDERINGS OR SKETCHES?
Already during my studies, many of my fellow students were often better at creating rendered 3D sketches. I still tend to work with simple, almost naive sketches. It works for me. This way, I can communicate my ideas to my team.

DO YOU TAKE NOTES ON THE GO?
I never take notes when I’m inspired. I live like a giant sponge. And when I want to create something or when I recieve a project brief, I draw from this sponge. Even in this conversation, it works. I’m glad I didn’t get to see any questions beforehand. Now everything is much more spontaneous, and you get honest answers.

YOU DON’T STRIKE ME AS SOMEONE WHO WORKS SOLELY ON -IMPULSE. YOUR PROJECTS APPEAR METICULOUSLY PLANNED. YOU USED TO BE A PROFESSIONAL SNOWBOARDER. DO YOU ATTRIBUTE YOUR GOAL-ORIENTED APPROACH TO YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THAT FIELD?
Maybe more than anything else, the determination to achieve something as a team! That’s something you learn quickly in competitive sport. Even in individual sports, you’re never really a lone fighter. Even when it comes to designs, I always have to communicate clearly with my employees, develop a plan – and then work together with my team to implement it. I have to win my team over for every project and set goals that everyone believes in.

AND IF YOUR TEAM SAYS NO?
I don’t take no for an answer. For me, no means: think again! What if we could do it? And if something goes wrong, it’s like learning a new snowboard trick: then you have to analyze what went wrong. How can I get better without repeating the same mistake? Here’s an example: Years ago, we did a project for Fendi that involved ten fountains. I had never thought about how a fountain works. When the brand said, “Cool, let’s do it!” I thought to myself, “Oh God, now I actually have to do it.” I often allow myself to get carried away with very ambitious projects.

AS A DESIGNER, YOU HAVE LONG SINCE BECOME A BRAND. WHAT IS IT LIKE FOR YOU TO WORK WITH BIG BRANDS TODAY?
It varies. And it’s almost always challenging. Of course, I also get requests where a project is almost finished and I’m asked, “Can you do this for us?” But if the creative freedom is lacking, I’m not interested. The added value of a collaboration between my studio and another brand is the merging of worlds that inform each side. It has to result in something that I wouldn’t have done if it had been an independent project. And it should be something that also has added value for the brand. You definitely need a lot of creative freedom for that. Again, Fendi is good example here. The initial commission was to design furniture. That didn’t feel right, so I did some research and the theme of water kept coming up as a motif in Fendi’s work – and that’s how the fountains came about. I gauge big brands precisely by their courage to engage with such ideas and processes.

YOUR OBJECTS APPEAR ALMOST PERFECT. WHAT ROLE DOES PRODUCTION PLAY IN YOUR WORK?
Two aspects are crucial: many of my designs are so minimalist that they really have to be perfectly executed in order to work. It doesn’t matter whether the projects are more artisanal or industrial. For the cast resin designs made here in the workshop next door, there are amazing craftsmen at work. I have a lot of respect for them. The same goes for the glass, which is more of an industrial process. But coordination also has to be perfect. I love perfectionism.

I’m currently working on a project in Japan that takes perfection and craftsmanship to the extreme. The government there has identified many different trades that are dying out because there are cheaper industrial alternatives. “My” project involves extremely elaborate lacquering techniques. A process that takes months, layers upon layers are applied to wooden objects like nail polish but made from natural resin. The products, often bowls, dry for a week and then the artisan starts on the next layer. An entire village was built around this craft. There is a craftsman who works with wood next to the river, since the logs are transported on the river. And then it moves on to the next expert, who then proceeds to the next step and so on. When the current owner’s father ran the company, there were 170 employees. Now there are only five and the population is ageing. He is uncertain if there will be a next generation. It’s heartbreaking. And yet incredibly fascinating. The Japanese government wants to promote this craft and increase its profile and they are trying to anchor the manufacturing techniques in the field of collector’s design.

COLLECTING IS A GOOD KEYWORD. MANY OF YOUR DESIGNS HAVE LONG BEEN COVETED COLLECTOR’S ITEMS. THE BOUNDARIES BETWEEN ART AND DESIGN ARE BLURRED IN YOUR WORK.
I work in a gray area. With some projects, I think this is definitely art and no longer design. But the main reason why my work appeared in the collector’s segment right from the start is simply that I like to use high-quality materials that are treated in elaborate and expensive processes. You reach a price point where it quickly becomes about limited editions or one-off pieces. It’s also partly because I want to experiment and test the limits of the materials I work with. Often there is simply no optimized method to achieve mass production.

WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE PART OF THE DESIGN PROCESS?
My favorite part is when we are in the workshop and directly collaborate with the material specialists and producers. I don’t enjoy industrial processes that much. With projects like Ikea’s, you make a design, send it off and someone else implements it. Of course, it was a very interesting project, but being part of the process is important to me.

YOU FREQUENTLY WORK WITH PLASTICS OR ARTIFICIAL MATERIALS. WHAT ATTRACTS YOU TO THEM?
There is an intriguing dynamic when you blend artificial and natural materials, especially when it’s not clear which is which. That’s why I like working with stones like onyx and marble, because they can also look very artificial with their bright colors. And combining these materials with resin sparks curiosity: Which part is natural? In the case of synthetic resins as well, the distinction between natural and artificial components is becoming increasingly blurred. In the past, the mixture usually contained five percent biological components, now it’s up to 80 percent.

YOU ALSO WORKED FOR THE MILLE MIGLIA – THE ONCE LEGENDARY, BREAKNECK CAR RACE FROM BRESCIA TO ROME AND BACK, TODAY ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT CLASSIC CAR EVENTS IN THE WORLD. DID YOU TAKE PART IN THE EVENT?
Yes, of course I was there. In the first year of the collaboration, we designed the resin trophies. Last year, we were commissioned to create a special installation of eight different sculptures. Each of them celebrating details of automotive innovations. For example, pistons, engines, hydraulics, headlights and so on.

WHAT DO YOU PERSONALLY ASSOCIATE WITH AUTOMOTIVE DESIGN?
I have never said to myself: if I have money, I’ll will buy this or that car. But that’s exactly what allows me to approach jobs like these with an open mind. I can go into a meeting with a blank sheet of paper and filter out things that are interesting to me as an outsider. I have a lot of respect for automotive production. Also because so many different trades come together there. The products have to function perfectly and for a very long time. To this day, getting a car to drive is probably one of the biggest human team endeavors.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU USED TO PLAY WITH AS A CHILD?

I played with Transformers, which are part machine, part human, and a lot
with Lego. But more importantly, my sister and I were brought up by my parents to be creative, even if they weren’t necessarily creatives themselves. For example, they never wanted any-thing material or store-bought for their birthdays. They always said: “Make me something!” And then we made things. For a time, my parents grew flowers in New Zealand and sold them at weekly markets. I made jewelry and bags and did the same. It was always an outlet for me to make things – that has stayed with me. My father is also an engineer and took things apart to understand them. I owe my curiosity to him, as well as my enthusiasm for factories. One time, I went to Bentley in Crewe in England. The assembly lines moving past is just amazing to me.

HOW DO THEY PREFER TO GET AROUND?
I drive a Polestar.

AN ELECTRIC CAR, AND A DESIGN STATEMENT – THE CEO IS ALSO THE CHIEF DESIGNER.
Oh, I didn’t know that. I’m just happy with it, and I really love the fact that I never have to go to the gas station.

Motor Block Sculpture for Mille Miglia, 2023, Sabine Marcelis. Images by Mathijs Labadie.

DO YOU LIKE DRIVING?
I love driving! It gives me important moments of solitude during the day, since there are always lots of people to deal with. In a car I can think. But it also has something to do with my youth in New Zealand. For someone who grew up in the middle of nowhere in New Zealand, a car meant something completely different than here in Rotterdam. I got my driver’s license when I turned 16, exactly on my 16th birthday. And I got my dad’s old Isuzu Bighorn – I felt free right away. Distances in New Zealand are huge, seven-hour driveswere no big deal for me back then. I like the fact that this sense of distance is still with me. In my mind, the world is much smaller because I grew up in a place where things are so far apart. The car gave my world a sense of scale.

YOUR PRODUCTS RADIATE COOLNESS. IN CONVERSATION, YOU -OFTEN TALK ABOUT JOY. IS DESIGN ALLOWED TO BE FUNNY?
I don’t consider myself to be a cool or serious person. Every design should evoke emotions in people. And I want them to be positive. If people think my design is fun, that’s great.

WHICH OF YOUR DESIGNS ARE THE MOST SOUGHT-AFTER BY COLLECTORS TODAY?
One of my very first projects was the Candy Cube. We still sell it, it’s a timeless object. It has taken on a life of its own, because originally it was intended to store bags and shoes for a fashion brand. Then it was requested as a side table. Last year, the Vitra Design Museum acquired it and put one on its posters alongside iconic chair designs. The New Zealand singer Lorde took one on tour with her. It’s exciting that the Candy Cube is so ambiguous that everyone gives it their own meaning. The personal relationships many people have to it even gave rise to a second-hand market. The crazy thing is – and I didn’t expect this – the Ikea collection also turned out to be like this. Most of these designs were limited, and now you have to pay many times the retail price.

DO YOU COLLECT ANYTHING?
I own an absurd amount of sunglasses.

PRESUMABLY INCLUDING OLD SNOWBOARD GOGGLES WITH BRIGHT FILTERS?
Those too. But glasses simply have to do with my work. It’s about filtering, color, and glass. It’s simply fascinating to me. And you know, you can just wear the most boring T-shirt or the oldest pair of jeans – but if you combine it with a good pair of sunglasses, you immediately look great.

YOU HAVE A FOUR-YEAR-OLD SON. DOES HE UNDERSTAND WHAT HIS MOTHER DOES?
Yes, he definitely knows that I’m a designer because he often points to objects and asks: Did you make that? He is well aware that I designed mirrors and he often points to them. Design is basically like seeing things with different eyes. Anyone who perceives objects for the first time, like my son, questions: Why does something look like that? A child doesn’t know why it gets dark at night. Children often make us rethink everyday things.

IS THAT WHY YOU KEEP DESIGNING EVERYDAY OBJECTS?
Possibly. In any case, you can recognize wonderful details in the everyday. I once developed a charging station for electric cars for Audi. The task was to design a charging station for the city of Amsterdam. We looked into the materials that make Amsterdam interesting. The buildings there are built deep into the sand, which ensures their stability. They are surrounded by water, which is everywhere and reflects the city back into itself. I used the power of these materials. The base is made of 3D-printed sand and I used the glow of the sky for the upper part. This transparent part was intended to reflect the light of the city like the water of the canals. Within this laminated glass are solar panels...

... THAT UNFORTUNATELY ALWAYS LOOK UGLY BY DEFAULT.
Exactly. They are always a compromise. So I worked with a glass manufacturer to make these solar cells invisible. The glass still lets enough sunlight through. Last year in Egypt, I built a large glass sundial with the same kind of solar cells. The clock charges itself during the day so that it can illuminate itself at night with the stored sunlight. The technology makes it possible for illuminated objects outdoors to be completely self-sufficient and to supply themselves with electricity.

DO YOUR CLIENTS STILL HAVE A SAY IN YOUR DESIGNS? OR DO THEY -ALREADY HAVE TOO MUCH RESPECT TO DO SO?
That’s definitely a trap you can fall into. Many clients don’t expect anything new, most of the time they expect something familiar when they approach me. I like to challenge these expectations.

Renault Twingo by Studio Sabine Marcelis. Image by Carl Kleiner.